The debate "What do you think about Israel good yes evil no" was started by
May 26, 2015, 10:09 am.
By the way, action007man is disagreeing with this statement.
28 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 19 people are on the disagree side.
That might be enough to see the common perception.
It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.
Damn3d posted 1 argument, toughgamerjerry posted 6 arguments, PsychDave posted 1 argument to the agreers part.
action007man posted 1 argument, I_Voyager posted 5 arguments to the disagreers part.
Damn3d, toughgamerjerry, danval130, soullesschicken, DarkAngelAnarchist, amanofprogress, PsychDave, Maxx_Royy, bearunter, sdiop, Amanurl, Weakley, historybuff, CJismyname12, yash123 and 13 visitors agree.
action007man, WordSpeller, I_Voyager, jedty, invincible_01, jj_jaim, KimUri, The_lamp, sabrina and 10 visitors disagree.
That's fine, it doesn't sound made up to me. It would have it if were in the 20's... But if it happened today I wouldn't be surprised. I don't know much about Palestinian politics.
Islam is a whole other conversation. I'm not surprised when someone tells me "x bad thing happened in an Islamic country". Islam is a religion of state control. It's all about justice being validated by central authorities. Allah is of course the higher authority, but in Islamic states brutal and expedient methods can be justified by the state because the quran makes implicit the role of an authority in bringing about gods will. The people themselves may be fine, but there are few - if any - great Islamic governments.
You might be right to say Palestine needs to be controlled. I think if we had a long discussion about the state of Palestine we'd find the history of war and oppression there has left the culture scarred and unhealthy. Not able to take care of itself. But I think it needs to be controlled by an independent authority that isn't already oppositional to its culture. How to get that I have no idea... But Israel hasn't done a good job. It's method of control has been founded on siege tactics.
We just shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking our way is so much better because we've given up brutal methods for less brutal methods. Yes, we don't torture our own people and we don't jump to aggression against peaceful people. We're not morally the inferior people. But we bomb the shit out of people we don't like. We still give in to measures of expedience. The west is built upon lesser evils, but still evils. We shouldn't look to Palestine for inspiration... I think it's better to see ourselves clearly, condemn ourselves for our mistakes and try to be a better people. Which is how we got to be a better people in the first place.
Sorry I didn't give the time line on when the Palestinians used chemical weapons. It was very recently. I believe it was less than two years ago and once when I am able to get to a computer I will find evidence on when it happened.
I'm not saying that anybody is perfect. I said that it would have been better if the Palestinians were at least controlled. But they did not act the way they do now back then and nobody can see the future so there is really nothing that could have been done.
I've got no idea if they did all that. I don't think they did by this point in history. I recall learning that the first use of chemical weapons was at the battle of Ypres in WW2. That was Nazi Germany against the French and the Canadians (the French ran off on day 1, we Canadians breathed through piss-soaked rags for two weeks and then successfully defended against the German offensive).
I'm not saying the Palestinians are a perfect people. There are no perfect people. Consider the native American, or south Americans. The constant tribal wars involving the former weren't good. The massive sacrifices in the territories of the latter were evil. So too was invading, taking them by the balls and annihilating their culture in order to promote the prosperity of Christianity. Their evils don't justify our evils.
Understandable. To be honest with you I think it would have been better if they did get rid of the Palestinians back then. If I understand correctly, the Palestinians kill their own people and use chemical weapons. Didn't they use chemical weapons to kill their own people? Maybe getting rid of them would be too harsh but at least getting them under control.
I can't find the quote from King Faisal 1 of Iraq and Syria that I had read previously. Maybe my source wasn't as good for that as I thought it was. But specifically I'm talking about the Faisal-Weizmann agreement. Just before Faisal became king, the region he ruled was previously ruled by the British. They appointed him king I think, and that may explain his willingness to help the Jews, given that then Palestine had also been under British control for seventy years after having been conquered. In the 20's there was still a plan to remove the Palestinians.
From what I can tell Weizmann had said in a letter to his wife that this was necessary because the Palestinian were power-seeking barbarians 400 years behind the times. Sounds an awful lot like the reasoning western powers have always used to kill the natives of a land in order to put it towards the purpose of a nation.
I'm curious about your source regarding a Jewish representative conspiring to kill the Palestinians. I know from debating with you that you tend to have solid sources, but that is not something I had heard of before.
I'm not convinced. I've sourced my arguments (not in the conversation, but I'm confident I could if you wanted). Yours sound like a conspiracy theory you picked up from a traveling Jewish bard. Geographically speaking, Israel and Palestine appear to be the same lands to me which have had numerous different cultural histories played out on it. It seems like Zionism and Israel itself are founded on religious and not objective, historic principles. Although internally they treat their people well, and treat with economic nations civilly, their brutal oppression of the people who've spent the last thousands years on that land is an unacceptable thing.
I know for a fact it was said as the Jewish people recieved the land "A land without a people for a people without a land", repeating the same mistakes as the west always does when it decides not to recognize those living on the lands as people.
And I know for a fact Jewish political representatives had communicated with the king of Iraq in the 20's to exterminate the Palestinian people so that a Jewish kingdom could be established. The bastard said something like "Though I think of the Jewish people as the lowest form of humans, I don't even regard the Palestinians as humans." and agreed to help for help in building an Iraqi kingdom (although this was never followed through upon.)
I would require drastic, objective evidence to accept what you've said and not merely the same claim so many other rhetoricians make that "our media is corrupt, there's a conspiracy."
The land that Israel has now was theirs to begin with. The Palestinians took it from the Israelis and then said that it belonged to them from the start. That is a common misconception spread around by today's media.
I am sorry that you misunderstood what I was saying about them giving back the Egyptians land. In one of the earlier wars which you said were many after the wars you listed. I believe was a war between Israel vs. the Palestinians and Egyptians. After the war was over, Israel gave Egypt back the land that they took from them as a peace offering. The Palestinians have since been trying to get Israel to give them "their" land back, but as I said before, that land did not originally belong to the Palestinians, it belonged to Israel before that. And so every time Israel has responded saying that they gave Egypt their land back because it was theirs originally, but they will not give the Palestinians the land because it did not originally belong to them. Now Israel has given a small portion of that land to the Palestinians but that is a very small portion and the Palestinians are still asking for more.
Everything else that you said is correct... for Palestine. Israel is not Palestine. There is a very big difference from the two. They are next to each other but they are not the same country.
That is most certainly not the origin of Israel... The Egyptians were the vassals of the Canaanites in 1900 BCE. But that relationship ended as the Egyptian empire was replaced successively through the ages until it was a Christian state by the 300's. But Christianity declined by the 600's and it became an arab state. Though a few times it flip-flopped, by the golden age of Islam Palestine was firmly an arabic nation. It remained that way until the mid 18th century when it was concurred by Britain. Shortly there-after was an immigration of Jewish people through into the 1920's. There are several attempted revolutions by the Arabs, but by 1947 in response to the Holocaust the British empire mandated that the conquered territory could become the nation of Israel in response to their losses in the Holocaust. In 1948 was the Arab-Israeli war which was followed by the Palestinian exile where 70'000 Palestinians were told to leave their homes and never go back. They took 26% more of Palestine then they had before and began massive settlement projects.
There are more wars and growth spurts to come after that.
Every stage of the nation of Israel's development is stained in the blood of the Palestinians who had lived there for 1200 years up 'til only a century and a bit ago. That's near enough for many people to remember grand parents and great grand parents whose families were somehow torn apart by all this. It's not a problem with the Jewish people or their history. It's the fact of this specific nation and its origins. We can ask all sorts of questions to support a Jewish state, which is fine... But that Israel was built on the Palestinian lands was a matter of expedience, politics and sentiment which resulted in death and mayhem.
Um no it doesn't. Israel got their territory that they lost back and no more. Their territory that they took from Egypt, they gave it back, because it didn't belong to them, it belonged to the Egyptians. What exactly are you talking about in history that made them evil? I talked to an Israeli speaker a few weeks ago and he gave me a big history lesson, and from what he told me, I did not see anything that Israel did to make them evil.
but what about the way they decided to create their country .. Israel looks like a friendly country .. but history is showing the total opposite
Also something you may not know about Israel. They were the first to help Nepal after the natural disaster. Just thought I would let you know. I was told by a man who is from Israel and was in the military in Israel for many years.
Trust me guys you want to be on the good side of Israel. They have an army big enough to destroy the rest of the world on their own. They are good because they do not look for a fight but they will defend their country if necessary. I would not mind living in Israel. It is the safest place on earth.
I have no problem with Israel, although if I lived in Iran, I would view "Little Satan" a bit differently.