When undocumented immigrants flow into California small business and tax payers are hit hard

April 4, 2018, 9:09 pm

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The debate "When undocumented immigrants flow into California small business and tax payers are hit hard" was started by Matthew354 on April 4, 2018, 9:09 pm. 11 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 7 people are on the disagree side. People are starting to choose their side. It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.

Matthew354 posted 3 arguments to the agreers part.
Ian posted 1 argument, Nemiroff posted 6 arguments to the disagreers part.

Matthew354, Conservative81 and 9 visitors agree.
Ian, NeoArchaic, Nemiroff, historybuff, Ash and 2 visitors disagree.

Najam1
replied to...

As legally as Christopher Columbus, or as legally as Andrew Jackson taking Florida from the Seminoles?

5 months, 2 weeks ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

well we know that people who come here illegally generally have shit lives, are underpaid in abusive work conditions, recieve almost no benefits, and live in fear of even going to the police, there must have been some hurdles or channels closed to them. otherwise they would have done it legally.

and if they continue to be a net positive aside from the entry issue, maybe we should look to loosen some restrictions or lower some costs on 3rd world people.

5 months, 2 weeks ago
Najam1
replied to...

You are not addressing the people who are born outside of hospitals and within the borders.

5 months, 2 weeks ago

It still comes under the assumption that they must file taxes, and if they committed a crime they aren't compelled to and it doesn't make a case. There are plenty of illegal immigrants that return over the border after deportation because of our weak border security.

And SSN tax fraud? Even sources that would suggest supportive immigrants still cite 1.8 million cases of fradulant use. Why would they always use an ITIN number if this is a harder possibility? Maybe NoQuestionsAsked is a bit more than that.

In the end, the ITIN figure comes from assumptions, no need has been established for a need to illegallly cross, plenty of public programs are still available to illegals. Arguing a net gain is a bit of a stretch even with the taxes gained by sales, and putting money into the economy by spending alone isn't the patriotic act suggested. If the system is broken, there can be a fair argument on immigration reform, but going around the system keeps us from understanding the actual weaknesses in it.

5 months, 2 weeks ago

Instead of murder, imprisonment, and deportation let's take advantage of people who aren't fortunate enough to be granted a mother who birthed them in an official hospital.
Let's accept that some humans enter the Earth minus a birth certificate and SS card, even in USA.
Cryptocurrency and crypto assignments are stronger than kryptonite against those who feel that every living person has to produce documents validating their existence and right to earn money in USA.
Instead of warring against cryptocurrency, there is a way for governments to get whatever taxes they claim; within the system.
We are dealing with individuals who cannot create a crypto-coin.
There are many ways for governments to get whatever money they claim is taxes within the sophisticated process.
There is no profit from dead and deported folks.

5 months, 2 weeks ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

but they dont hide when the system allows them to, and eagerly pay their taxes when given the opportunity.

no fraud involved, they dont use a ssn.

5 months, 2 weeks ago

I should clarify on the 'you can't hide int he system' before that gets out of context, so we can all work on the same definitions.

It isn't guaranteed they would, but there's no promise to even commit social fraud either, just don't pay taxes and live off of some community benefits. An identity helps avoid deportation and climb some ladders, but in the end there are ways around paying.

In other words, it's compleley possible to hide in the US, outside of our tax system. How about those tax stats? Are they conflated with legals? Do they account for fraud damages? Insurance claims?

5 months, 2 weeks ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

https://amp.cnn.com/money/2017/04/19/news/economy/undocumented-immigrant-taxes/index.html

5 months, 2 weeks ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

there is no identity theft. they dont use a fake ssn. they use a Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) from the irs.

https://www.cnn.com/money/2017/04/19/news/economy/undocumented-immigrant-taxes/index.html

5 months, 2 weeks ago

The illegal might need to eat, but arguing a 'need' for American citizenship that breaks the law by intentionally crossing how many miles?... isn't exactly a need.

You could argue the hyporcicy or unconstitutional nature of the 'tea party', but border security was never considered an overstepping regulation, I don't think. Argue the process, sure, but letting the crossings continue doesn't make it more secure.

Actually, for a long time until 2012, serial killers were mostly black. Take Henry Louis Wallace for example, I always make time to plug my criminal knowledge. Sounds kinda racist when you plug that in with no point to make -i mean I didn't say Angel the Railroad killer was representative, but he was famous and it highlights a fair point about the 40% that cross cannot even apply for ITIN numbers. Was that mean to be racist?

Of course not, but it does seem like a nitpick, so... could you elaborate the need?

5 months, 2 weeks ago

Of course it's not help. Giving back with a fradulant SSN isn't guaranteed, but implementing yourself forcefully into the system isn't going to do the system favors, let's be realistic about what that means. It means if someone needs to borrow money from a bank, and uses someone else's credit, their identity enables them to do so, no 'patriotism' about it. IDENTITY THEFT HURTS PEOPLE, it hurts the economy, and it is entirely possible to get ythe benefits and retire, that is my point. You can't hide in the system if you don't pay in, and even then the system isn't designed for two people per SSN.

You're upset not that an illegal immigrants avoids the income tax by getting under the table money, but that under the table money can be less than minimum wage? Let's be realistic, it enables businesses to cheat, and while certain taxes should be rolled back to give people generally more money to spend, it messes with the census which helps us plan taxes. Shouldn't it be natural for a government that plans to take less should spend less? It skirts around the idea.

5 months, 2 weeks ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

and what do you mean "businesses that help you earn less then minimum wage"?!

that's help?

5 months, 2 weeks ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

so they are committing fraud in order to give back to society? how patriotic of them!

I wish they didn't commit a crime crossing, but the problem is our immigration law is stupid. breaking stupid laws is the american way. like the tea party.

all the famous serial killers are white Americans except one old a** brit.

as a right winger, why do you care what he does with his money? heck even a lefty wouldn't care cause they pay their taxes. unlike some of our wealthiest citizens. they already contributed more to the economy by being underpaid for the labor they put in. and regardless of how much he sends back he still needs to eat don't he?

5 months, 2 weeks ago

Illegal immigrants could pay taxes with a specific ITIN number by using their overstayed visa number... but then that risks getting caught, and over 1.8 million use SNN. Unsuprisingly, illegals using SSN are actually committing fraud if they are.

The 1.4 million sounds less significant in our, what, 300 million, but let us also consider the following.

-An illegal immigrants has committed a crime by immigrating illegally. What is one more crime, not paying taxes, to cover your tracks? Some businesses would help you earn less than minimum wage.

-If about 60% is overstayed visas, the other 40% were able to cross the border. There was actually a serial killer that utilized railroads from 1986 up to 1999 to cross to and from Mexico. That was just to show crossing is indeed possible, not that all are murderers. Now consider, about 40% do not qualify for ITIN numbers if they did not overstay, so ITIN and SSN are not paid.

-If SSN fraud is committed, it is difficult to prosecute because 1. Identity theft requires verification of identity, the government isn't close enough to everybody but it is one of the 'safer' bets considering the claims of illegally immigrated children that can go to school. Also messing with SSN messes with a person's credit, unpaid loans or debts may be disbelieved, and forgiveness options are fought tooth and nail. The illegal might have done it, but the owner pays. Do you ever feel cheated by your credit score?

-What about insurance? An illegal cannot get insurance and in the case of a car accident, their fault or not, ties up the claims and has in many cases resulted in no payout. It's not fair but getting rear-ended by someone with no insurance means money cannot be charged to a sure payout... Does the illegal have enough to pay a lump sum?

This also does not account for social programs such as the one already listed in this debate (Interesting to know, I knew California had problems too) and in cases of identity theft, you suppose they can't retire (Talking about the 40%)? All they have to do is what they have done. In the case of the 60%, it's entirely possible to retire... once moving home.

I would also like to say that there are plenty of illegal immigrants that work to send the money they earn home. It doesn't go to local businesses, it doesn't go back into our economy. While my dad was legal, he does this, and I figure if someone who comes here for money doesn't want to live here legally or wait, what are they doing it for?

5 months, 2 weeks ago
Matthew354
replied to...

Wrong, look at the California Dream Act and it's qualifications. It's undocumented immigrants only and paid for by the state to get into school for free

5 months, 2 weeks ago
Matthew354
replied to...

You clearly never lived in California, everyone here are subjected to these many taxes. What's more, I already understood many illegal immigrants have gotten jobs, my gripe is that many have welfare benefits that is not even awarded to the legal immigrants that worked even harder to get here in the United States, like my parents did from the Philippines.

For example: The California Dream Act is only applied to undocumented immigrants even if they had jobs provided by the state, and not to legal immigrants who want to get into school for free. Among many others, so this is clearly unfair.

5 months, 2 weeks ago

and as for businesses... well even illegals need to eat so more business for the grocery store and up chain farms. more construction for homes and furniture, more clothing sales from clothing stores, etc.

since when do businesses suffer from more consumers?

5 months, 2 weeks ago

the truth is many illegal immigrants pay income and sales tax while receiving almost no government benefits. that's a net plus for tax payers.

5 months, 2 weeks ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

why don't you also blame the income tax, you're home owners tax and sales tax on illegal immigrants?

5 months, 2 weeks ago
Ian
replied to...

There are several issues with this argument, the first being that it is based off of anictdotal evidence. You don't mention the fact that this could just be happening to you. Secondly, this argument is very correlative in that you have no way of proving through causality that illegal/undocumented immigrants are the root to these taxes. Thirdly, the argument is very base level because it forgets to mention that majority of undocumented immigrants take jobs (Bureau of Labor Statistics), which is an economic stimulus. Simply put, you're argument is not substitive and, even if it were to be true, it completely forgets the fact that the economic productivity deriving from illegal immigrants would simply counteract the minimal increase in tax they could create.

5 months, 2 weeks ago
Matthew354
replied to...

Yes it does, there is a 10 cent charge on every gas tank filled, $200 car registration tax, and 8.25% business service tax that I have to go through every day in California because of the immigrant welfare paid by the state. Taxes everywhere for legal citizens, and the welfare undocumented immigrants don't deserve.

5 months, 2 weeks ago

let me get this straight, you think that when the labor force and consumer base get larger, this damages businesses and tax payers?

how is that?

5 months, 2 weeks ago
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