White privilege isn't actually real

February 6, 2016, 7:28 pm

Agree28 Disagree44

39%
61%

The debate "White privilege isn't actually real" was started by ProudAmerican888 on February 6, 2016, 7:28 pm. 28 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 44 people are on the disagree side. That might be enough to see the common perception. It looks like most people are against to this statement.

ReadyToBegin posted 8 arguments, Freyja posted 4 arguments, bigB posted 1 argument, MrShine posted 8 arguments, danielle posted 3 arguments to the agreers part.
voltagerage_21 posted 1 argument, historybuff posted 7 arguments, PsychDave posted 1 argument to the disagreers part.

ProudAmerican888, ReadyToBegin, Freyja, bigB, danielle, atorncanvas, ghostofanidiot, The_Executioner, alexoliver, MinuteMan101, dalton7532, SwaggerPoptart and 16 visitors agree.
historybuff, Sosocratese, SowmithriSrinivas, stixkilla, voltagerage_21, yanny_banny, jfischthecat, swp16, Kopano_98, progressive, FarisHassan, sloanstar1000, PsychDave, Adonah, RyanWakefield, pajrc1234, AgnosticAcceptor, eric1943, salote and 25 visitors disagree.

http://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed/

3 years, 4 months ago

here is a list of the unarmed black people American police killed in 2015. some of them sound like accidents. some of them sound justified. but most of them the only explanation comes from the person who killed them. and the guy who kills someone doesn't make for a reliable witness. also the defence of he reached for my gun so I killed him seems to come up alot. which of course is completely unprovable one way or the other.

3 years, 4 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Fair enough. I can never fault someone for not believing something they have not seem evidence of. I will link a few peer reviewed articles (or at least links to their abstract since many are behind pay walls) so that you can see where we are getting our belief that there is inherent, passive benefits to being white.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9125.1998.tb01265.x/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jels.12077/abstract?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

You are right that correlation does not prove causation, and that various studies have linked factors like social economic status more strongly to sentencing and crime rates, but there has been substantial research showing that even controlling for these variables race plays a role in conviction and sentencing.

The problem with asking us to suggest a solution is that, honestly, I don't know one. I can see the problem, but there is too much involved that I am not an expert in to feel comfortable recommending how to solve it. I do agree that some of the police killings that were protested were justified, but others were certainly not.

3 years, 4 months ago

I suppose I'll just have to look at them then. I've seen news article's purposely screwing with numbers for a goal, and an unbiased source would be nice. On the other hand, the statements still suggest that the system is flawed in a way that cannot be prepared by having new people. So what, does that mean that the system, or the people of this country, are racist?

Alright, if you tell me there is a mountain, I'll look for a mountain, because while uneven numbers are not in themselves wrong, no matter where the system has them, longer sentences for the same crime is something worth looking into. I'll take some time to see if there are any problems with receiving data, if the individuals arrested follow any patterns besides being black, I'll look. However, I can't say that the information you find has any worth secondhand.
I haven't had any people bring up valuable statistics with plenty or data missing or skewed in its collection, I have not, despite learning on civil rights and progress, learned that racism exists today by hearing about modern racism that can't be attributed to the rules of law enforcement. I have heard news programs that exist simply to get a rise out of people regarding race, and noticed marches that occur for a police shooting that can actually be justified with physical evidence at the scene.... get that nobody came at me with numbers before in an unbiased manner. Then you've told me there is a mountain of them. Past experience regarding these debates tell me that it hasn't lead to anything meaningful.
Here's my other small problem, whenever I hear "white privilege" the meaning is different so whenever it has been presented, I get different issues looking at what should be the same numbers, if the information collected could be trusted or from the same source, the numbers change. So by white privlige, I need to know what it entails. Is it that there are racist/biases people riddled throughout the system that must be fired, or that certain laws are still in place that discriminate? If it truely is a culture, we must get a way to fairly determine who the culture problems lie with, and how to get these people out. There isn't anything wrong with that idea, right? If privilege is an issue, it is revoked by having fair people.

3 years, 4 months ago

you might have a point if it was one or two statistics. Then we could say that it isn't enough evidence to suggest causation. But there are mountains of studies proving that racial bias is a huge problem. I don't understand how you can look at hundreds of studies which all agree there is a problem, this is including findings by government bodies, and say that there isn't one. no matter what field you look look at there is a disparity. Wealth, arrests, incarceration rates, prison terms, income ratio, etc.

By any measure there is a huge advantage to being white. And as a side note, there is no other conclusion to draw from prison sentencing. The only factor between the cases was race. they committed the same crimes. blacks on average got 20% longer sentences. There is no way to avoid that that is obvious racism on the part of the courts.

3 years, 4 months ago

Disparity does not equal racism, and correlation does not prove causation. I was pretty sure that we made that point, as well as noticing that our debate when focused on the system, prompted a response that suggested that the system needed to be fixed, or has a problem. Since disparity is not an active action of oppression, but rather an unbalanced ratio, would it make you feel better if the statistics suggested "all races currently commit the same amount of crime"? I can't say that the previous years of the civil rights issues and attacks from police don't have a hand in poverty or modern makeup of wealth, but that was then. Perhaps the distribution of wealth and neighborhoods funds are shifted by this, but circumstances do not excuse resorting to crime, and generalizations like this are unfair to the rest of poor communities.

The numbers are uneven, but uneven numbers are just that, not a sign of oppression or status inhibiting cultures. As a quick question, did somebody like bill gates get factored into the race disparity for income, or Warren buffet? those guys are friggin rich, any 1% that happens to be white can do that, though I wouldn't doubt the distribution of wealth.

As for incarcerations, it fails to include age groups as a general whole. Younger people crack easier and take deals, which are suggested to be on the table, but in actuality unless the DA has this offer a police officers offer on a lesser sentence can't hold water. If more black individuals at a younger age are arrested than white, this is easily explained. This is off the top of my head, but that is one possible reason without stretching brain cells and taking them for a walk. If we really tried reaching, we could say that there is a connection between the lawyers used, or rather the sit back and wait for not guilty.

uneven numbers is nothing more, nothing less. Sure, it is definetly worse on one side when comparing the two, but do you think it is because police do not bother to follow up on white criminals, that there isn't a fair representation or protection for black people in courts? If you believe you have something with these numbers, they need better development. Perhaps after the systems have been reformed, there are still social issues that provide a struggle, where crime is a quick fix or easy relief, though I am one to believe in self responsibility. Evidence suggests that it can be used as an object or driving factor that can be analyzed.

3 years, 4 months ago

I'm confused. I'm not sure what needs proving. This disparity is well documented and is common knowledge. Minorties make up significantly more of the prison population than they should. Minorities are much more likely to be stopped, arrested or harassed by police. The incarceration rate of black males is over six times higher than that of white males. An analysis by the U.S. Sentencing Commission found that prison sentences of black men were nearly 20% longer than those of white men for similar crimes.
According to a 2011 study from Pew Research Center, whites possess 20 times more wealth than African Americans and 18 times that of Latinos. Those are just the examples i pulled off google in 2 minutes. The stats and studies go on and on. Racial disparity is still very much an issue. And it hasn't been improving lately. The racial gap has widened since the Supreme Court restored judicial discretion in sentencing in 2005, according to the Sentencing Commission's findings.

3 years, 4 months ago

But you are arguing that white privelidge exists, or that there is a problem. In that case, shouldn't you be able to properly prove that there is a problem? Deplorable actions exist, and occur everyday. This does not mean anything, we just have to hold the people that should not do this to a high standard. All I am asking for is proof on your half, to prove a problem exists. I'm certain in your position, you'd say that an assertion that something doesn't exist doesn't require proof, just the ability to refute points as baseless. I refute your points.

3 years, 4 months ago

I'm not the one arguing a position. you are. you are saying that white privilege does not exist. just because I don't have a perfect solution to a complicated problem does not mean the problem doesn't exist, which seems to be what you are saying.

3 years, 4 months ago

The problem only exists if there is a reason that the problem exists. Get rid of the racist people, get rid of the problem. Certainly a proactive action is better than a reaction, still, these people can and will go without us saying. Your suggestion says that we must find racist people by putting them under scrutiny, which I do not deny, but you already assume that the people or system are racist, and that is a problem? wouldn't you just see what you want to with that mindset?

And saying that racist cops don't get punished? Any cop will get punished of there is public outcry, and there must be some powers allowed to police for them to do their job. If there is a racial quota, or a standard that makes officers get pulled aside to say "hey Jim, you've been giving tickets to too many black people, how about toning it down?" would that repair a broken piece or provide room for a certain hesitation in citing a person breaking the law. I remember my high school had complaints about teachers getting too many black students in trouble, in the future they hesitated,and everyone's attitudes went to shit. The classes were much less productive, because teachers didn't want to start something.

To make a shorter version, if there is a problem with the system, I would suggest somebody say something about the laws. If there is a problem with the culture, it isn't because of the law, so remove the people perpetuating the culture. But starting a witch hunt or neutering the civil force expected to act for peace is a bad idea. This is why I say privilege is not real, because the examples come from an assumption of a few possibly racist individuals, though police brutality in general or ignored information on incidents are also very possible and very available on a quick Google search. So which law, or which people? If you believe something is wrong, you must have a direction for right. Suggest a first step.

3 years, 4 months ago

first off giant walls of text are difficult to read.

secondly, your point only makes sense if the system is trying to fix the problem. rampant racism can be fixed, but only if you are trying to fix it. the system denies there is a problem. people such as yourself deny there is a problem. as a result no one does anything about it and the situation continues.

the system doesn't punish racist cops. they have to literally murder black people in the street before they will do anything about it. that culture of cops looking out for cops protects them from being punished for their racism.

3 years, 4 months ago

Internal culture is a passing matter, despite what might be considered taught to the next generation. Simply put, if the individual is at fault, we do not blame the system, we replace the individual in the system. If that does not rid of privilege, then there must be a rule that allows the faulty individual or unfair acts to continue. At the age people are hired at,they already understand racism, we know what is racist. They do not become racist on the job, unless perhaps they are predisposed to racism or do experience the wrongs at a highly disproportionate level, and biases from those circumstances are difficult to avoid, while also minimal if the person has a firm mind. If we hire racists because the person hiring them is racist, we must recognize this and have the person who hires fired and replaced. Its that simple, replace someone who is incompetent or unscrupulous with someone who is virtuous, or at least not aligned with providing races privelages. By this means, if those that have power and are undesirable, they will be flushed out by the next few generations. If pertaining to the police, night shift officers could receive some attention, because there is little action in comparison to the afternoon or morning police, and tends to be cliquish. So the person will either already be racist when hired, or in the smallest minority when it comes to certain groups within the system, which can be rooted out if we focus on the individuals. Even then, it does not mean the system is flawed, just fire and acquire. If the culture is not tied to the rules, a fresh batch of individuals will not become racist because they work in the system or because their coworker has a contagious condition. People should be considered carefully, and then they will prove themselves as rational persons.

3 years, 4 months ago

Mr. shine your argument simply isn't true. racism doesn't have to be official policy for it to exist. if enough people enforcing the law are racist, then the racism will be endemic. police departments have an internal culture. the military has one too. if that culture is racist or sexist then it encourages new members to conform. so no, racism doesn't just disappear as time goes on because one generation of racists trains the next.

3 years, 4 months ago

Exactly and thats what I said, just because the stats say there are more black males in prison than white males. it doesn't mean anything about races. that's just how it is, there could be 100 black people in prison for petty crimes but 2 white people in for triple murders.

3 years, 4 months ago

Correlation doesn't prove causation. If there is no laws or systems that directly oppress everyone except for whites, or oppress black people in general, then it cannot be institutional. If there is racism in the system, it is by certain individuals, which after a set lifespan will disappear, and racism will move out based on the reason that there is no need for it to stay. Supposed we aren't equal, it isn't fair to assume that the proportions of crimes committed by race will be equal. A heads or tails coin spin reveals tails appears 80% of the time if it's a penny. But pennies have only 2 sides, so shouldn't it be 50/50? No, perhaps smaller influences affect the results, or maybe expecting a fair result is wrong. Numbers would be nice to play with, but all in all if there is no reasoning to support favoritism, such as segregation, Lynch mobs, tar and feathering, or even just proof that people regularly hate people "because they are black" I can't say that racism is institutionalized.

3 years, 4 months ago

okay fair enough I don't know American statistics or anything. I wouldnt say its like that here.its true that here there are more black people in prison than white people but that's just a coincidence, they've committes more crimes but its nothing to do with race.

3 years, 4 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Danielle, I don't know the statistics for where you are but in America black people are far more likely to be convicted for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and are more likely to serve longer sentences than white people who committed the same crime. That institutional difference is white privilege. I don't say that to criticize you in any way, and I am in no way saying you are racist. White privilege isn't something you do, it is benefits that you passively receive to due to your ethnicity. As I said, it may be different there, but North America does have white privilege to some extent at least.

3 years, 4 months ago

Darkderpy that is so wrong! yes im white, but I'm certainly not privileged!

3 years, 4 months ago

White Hispanic (or if I do the white thing, Italian German Colombian) reporting in. Discriminated against with white people because I don't get minority privileges, discriminated against with Black people because I'm white enough. Discriminated against by Hispanics because I'm not in their culture/inner circle. Though I will say that I'll probably get married to a black chick.

Meanwhile, if anyone disagrees with the idea of "white privilege", could it be explained which policies create favoritism or inequality among whites, what government circles are only open legally to white people, what it means to be privileged, and what steps should be taken to remove privileges without discrimination. Also, a side statement that I hear is that white people don't have culture. If white people don't have culture, why are there " white people be like" stereotypes that suggest endorsements of gun violence and the such? Is there a culture when it they are considered evil but not when it comes to food, innovation, policies, gatherings, and the like? If there is a white privilege, I haven't seen the half of it. Racism? Sure, but we can't pretend it's an endorsed system anymore. The racism part will always be there, but can eventually come close to dying.

I can't say that this is an endorsement of white people, or that I've never met a racist. It's that some things can't be attributed to racism, but when agree with something that gets you unjustly called racist, it makes every conversation dull, stupid, and guilt ridden, even when none of your ancestors were around for slavery.

3 years, 4 months ago

I bet most of you are white lmao. the privileged are blind as heck

3 years, 4 months ago
Freyja
replied to...

I hope I've been clear. What do you mean?

3 years, 4 months ago
ReadyToBegin
replied to...

I understand. Just covering bases.

3 years, 4 months ago

Fair enough, I wasn't disagreeing, just saying that this opinion doesn't receive cheers and claps.

3 years, 4 months ago
ReadyToBegin
replied to...

Even if we take it as an insult. My other argument shows that it is both ways for races. It doesn't prove white privilege is real; It just shows that people are racist to one another.

3 years, 4 months ago

While that is sort of true, usually the "hard r" isn't dropped, and while I have no problem with it in historical fiction and words should not be banned, it easily riles people up. "n-word" might sound a bit stupid to say when referring to it, yet it has better feedback. If it works, it isn't stupid.

3 years, 4 months ago
ReadyToBegin
replied to...

Also many black people use nigger as common place which can become confusing. Like the word bitch. When one person or race says it it is racism or sexism when another it is being kind and friendly. Sometimes teachers can't tell.

3 years, 4 months ago
ReadyToBegin
replied to...

If you go to a majority minority school it is the other way around. I went to a school that was 50/50 black and white (almost) ... and I don't know how many times a black person who didn't hate white people or their culture were called "oreos" "uncle Tom's" "so white" "not real" "not black enough" Many hated white people for slavery and oppression and refused to associate.

They never got in trouble.

There's two sides to every coin

3 years, 4 months ago

if you go to a majority white school u will hear nigger negro and nigga all the time but me saying cracker once almost ended in a suspension for using racial words toward the opposite race

3 years, 4 months ago
ReadyToBegin
replied to...

Oh. Okay.

3 years, 4 months ago

I've read your arguments Freyja, I don't think that was argument you were trying to get across (at least that's what it seems)

3 years, 4 months ago
Freyja
replied to...

I wrote this from the sarcastic perspective of someone who believes that straight white males should basically bow down to minorities. That's exactly what I'm saying.

3 years, 4 months ago
ReadyToBegin
replied to...

I agreed with the statement and I am black. Wouldn't that assume that everyone who agrees is white? isn't that rasict in it's self?

3 years, 4 months ago
ReadyToBegin
replied to...

I don't know about that. Striaght white males can face discrimintation just like everyone else.

3 years, 4 months ago
Freyja
replied to...

sorry, I didn't mean to downvote your argument.

3 years, 4 months ago
Freyja
replied to...

Vernaculis puts it well. His argument puts it in perspective: the white privilege argument is an infallible argument. Either you agree that white privilege is real or you don't agree and are just blind to your privilege. It's basically a curse to be a straight white male these days. You are in no specific minority (that people care about) and so you are automatically privileged. This means that it is impossible to be racist or sexist against you. Briefly: one cannot cry discrimination if they are a straight white male.

3 years, 4 months ago

I am honestly not sure one way or the other. I have been pulled over a few times, and was annoyed since it was inconvenient. I was not afraid of the police officer in the least. That is contrasted to what some of my friends have experienced. They are of other ethnicities and when they see a police officer they get nervous. Not because they are doing or have done something wrong, but because they have had bad interactions with police in the past.

I can't say that I have ever seen white privilege, but at the same time being white I might just take for granted the difference and not see it.

3 years, 4 months ago

At one point it was, but not any more.

3 years, 4 months ago
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