The debate "Why does the alt right hate so many groups of people it cannot be justifiable" was started by
January 9, 2018, 7:55 am.
5 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 5 people are on the disagree side.
There is a tie in this debate, post your arguments, call some reinforcements and break this tie.
Nemiroff posted 8 arguments to the agreers part.
Nemiroff, Berry_Good, bernie2020 and 2 visitors agree.
5 visitors disagree.
I never said they are going to heaven. I just said they exist and may choose to murder even with their belief in the existence of God.
as to why I think murder is bad, to be honest most of our moral values are ingrained in our subconscious and do not need rationalizing, but those values were ingrained by society and children lack both the reasoning of why it's bad or even an understanding of the consequences of such actions. not that there are no moral theories, there are, I just haven't weighed each ones pro and cons, but I will provide an example of one.
murder is bad because if it was applied universally and without exception... the world would cease to work for us as we would all be dead. since society cannot function with widespread universal murder, and in this moral theory individual exceptions are not allowed, thus murder is immoral. because it cannot feasibly be practiced universally.
this theory seems inadequate to me, but it still seems better than mindlessly following instructions.
*...implying with God only "certain" things are justifiable.
(lol typo error)
To Nemiroff (second reply): Are you saying murder is "evil." What is your basis for that belief? Also neighbor, devil worshipers do not go to Heaven. Believing there is Satan is not the same as believing "in" Satan.
I wrote all things are "justifiable without God" (not all things are possible [we can't turn water into gold. Be cool if that was possible]). I wrote all things are justifiable "without God" implying with God only "certain" things are possible. So there is a life without God and a life with God. The life without God renders morality meaningless, there's justifying everything (which is no Justification at all once we compare it to a life with God). A life without God is chaos. Because morality is meaningless and so you can do whatever you want. This chaos should be self-evident that God is real, causing free-thinkers to search for Justification. To search for meaning when a life without God is meaningless. All things are "justifiable" without God and therefore also meaningless. This is why there must be a God. And meaning and Justification lie with His morality.
I would like to point you also claimed all things are possible without a certain belief so the same question can be asked of you of how to justify random murder without the Christian god. but you asked first and I believe my answer will sound alot like yours only different names:
without hinduism, and the moral guidance of their deities and prophets, or the fear of a horrible fate after their life, people live life on whims committing random murders.
in fact, I don't even have to list which morals they lack, because that says nothing about the morals they do have from other sources, we have nothing but blank slates which can be capable of all sorts of evil.
and also in fact. even within the belief system of the Christian god you have devil worshipers. you can't worship the devil (or god) without believing in both, and yet they are very likely to murder randomly.
so there are your justifications.
I gave you an example. You said that a "lack" of "believing" in Capitalism or Buddhism means you "can justify anything" (believe in anything else and be justified). So my example to you was, what if someone believes in committing random murders. You have already written "justification is subjective."
not being a capitalist or a Buddhist makes no distinction about what the person actually believes in, we only know what they don't believe in, which leaves the possibility for everything else.
you can't say anything about somebody based on a negative quality.
"every belief from buddhism to capitalism justifies only a limited set of things, whereas a lack of those beliefs can justify anything."
Did you just say not being a Capitalist or a Buddhist means you can have a belief in, let's say, "commiting random murders" and you are justified? Again I must make this point, which Niel got wrong, "justification" is not what humans "make of it" it's what God makes of it.
"if something can be said about everything, is it even worth saying in a comparison?"
Yes, because what you will say about "everything" will either be to put it to shame or to praise it - because the "thing" you are now "comparing" everything else to is; The belief in the One True God, which judges all other beliefs.
"..comparing a specific idea vs all other possibilities combined. that is not a fair comparison."
Ugh. Yeah, neighbor, that is exactly the comparison were supposed to be making. A belief in the One True God is the only belief that matters. It sheds light onto every subject and challenges all other beliefs. You want to have this belief before having any other. Don't you believe that a belief in the One True God is more fundamental than all the other beliefs you can have in this world?
once again your comparing a specific idea vs all other possibilities combined. that is not a fair comparison.
every belief from buddhism to capitalism justifies only a limited set of things, whereas a lack of those beliefs can justify anything. if something can be said about everything, is it even worth saying in a comparison?
You are wrong neighbor. God has given every one a conscience. No matter what era a human lives in, their conscience helps them to have God's morality. Right and Wrong are absolute concepts not subject to change. People ignore their conscience to carry out their sinful desires. There is no justification outside of logic. Without God all things are justified including evil. With God only certain things are justified regardless of the era you live in. Explain what things are justified with out God's morality?
Simply saying it is justified is the same as saying that it was right to them or us in a past era. morality is subjective because man makes it subjective. I believe in God and therefore morality is objective to me but that doesn't make morality objective to all. Society evolves and so to does their morality and this is due to the fact that not everyone is Christian. Beliefs vary and therefore moral beliefs vary. If you are truly a christian then your morality can not be subjective. This may also be true with other belief systems.
Even if hate or violence is justified it does not mean it is moral.
"Justification" is not subjective xD
you too? Man is made in the image and likeness of God. Our sin nature is what causes us to be greedy and self-absorbed. Humans are capable of great kindnesses. What is the correct "view" to have sir, or is there none? The original argument is about "justification" of hate and violence as displayed by specific group. But I argue all hate and violence is justified (which doesn't deviate from the debate subject). ALL hate and violence is justified if you do not follow the teachings of God.
"justification is subjective" you're only proving the point that without the God of the Bible, morality is meaningless. Did you read what you wrote, "justification is subjective." That undermines right and wrong in the most disparaging way.
The act can be justified in one era and condemned in another. Slavery is an example of this. Doesn't make it right. As time moves on and humanity evolves laws and norms evolve as well.
To get back to the original argument. The right or "alt right" hates other groups as much as these groups hate them. Besides that people will always differ on beliefs and values. This will always as in the past create animosity, anger and even violence. WWII is a great example of this. Hitler wanted the perfect race or whatever he wanted. He was charismatic and swayed many people to accept his beliefs. the rest of the world did not accept these beliefs and this led to war.
Man is greedy and self absorbed. We will always dispose those who have what we want or those who don't see the world as we do.
justification is subjective. is it justified to kill in a war zone?
"they were justified...I don't agree with it.."
If something was "justified" why don't you agree with it? If something has been justified, how can it be condemned. No sir, something is not justified even if you would have us believe a charismatic person makes something justified. Since you proclaimed the BIBLE is the basis for why the, "crusades, the inquisition, pay to heaven, and even the third Reich" existed, back up your claim with the actual Scriptures that support those events, or refrain from saying the Bible is the basis for those events.
No, you are wrong. If I believe eating more apples in life is healthier and some believes eating fewer apples than I do, is healthier - where is the "giant disproportion" in those beliefs. Again I say to you, all beliefs are valid (including all the evil ones) if you do not follow the teachings of the God of the Bible.
they were justified by charismatic leaders of the past. I don't agree with it, but people were swayed by it. I would not be able to repeat their reasoning.
I could add other things as well, slavery was justified using the bible. I have no idea how but many thinkers of those times proclaimed it so. I can look up some quotes if you like.
comparing any belief against the combination of all other possible beliefs will always give you the same giant disproportion. you would have to do a 1 vs 1 for there to be meaning in that statement.
You are correct to say "many things" are justifiable if you believe in the God of the Bible. But I wasn't talking about "many things." I said "all things." Many things, however are not justifiable if you believe in the God of the Bible. "All things" are justifiable if you DON'T believe in the God of the Bible. Furthermore, explain how the "crusades, the inquisition, pay to heaven, and even the third Reich" are condoned by the Bible. Thank you.
many things are justifiable even if you do believe in the god or the bible. all you need is one charismatic priest and suddenly you have the crusades, the inquisition, pay to heaven, and even the third Reich.
the alt right, with all their hate, considers itself to be super christians.
All things are justifiable if you do not follow the teachings of the God of the Bible.