The debate "Why is fascism associated with right-wing politics" was started by
February 17, 2016, 1:09 pm.
8 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 6 people are on the disagree side.
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bigB posted 8 arguments, Sosocratese posted 4 arguments to the agreers part.
bigB, Sosocratese, ProudAmerican888, oscar90000, human and 3 visitors agree.
RyanWakefield, cancer_wins, Jericho and 3 visitors disagree.
migrant critical parties in Euorope (I don't say migrant criticism is fascism, but that's how many seams consider it), they are more to the left then the socialist parties, for example expand public unemployment insurance wayuch more then the socialists, anyway people consider them as extrem right winged, it's everywhere and always
Facism is associated with the right wing political spectrum because facism is an extreme version of right winged policies. An extreme leftist would be concidered a communist.
Sosocrates, you seem to have a very firm grasp on this subject. Are you college educated?
This is definitely one of the more interesting debates that I'm doing at the moment.
While there were certain members of the Nazi party that supported the socialist agenda and Hitler's early rhetoric reflected such visions, his actions were much different. One of the main socialists in the Nazi party was Ernst Rohm. He along with the remainder of the socialist movement were killed by Hitler during "The night of the long knives". This was a night of assassinations, arrests, and executions of the socialist members of the Nazi party. Hitler became increasingly uncomfortable with what was dubbed "the second revolution", which was the redistribution of wealth.
Hitler was also never really keen on economics. In his book "Mein Kamp" you can clearly see he found the topics of political economy and class boring and mundane, lacking any merit for deep thought. So he wasn't a socialist or capitalist, he was a pragmatist. He took money from banks and the wealthy ruling classes in Europe, he protected their interests when it aligned with his and killed them when it suited him more. The rhetoric of socialism never manifested into any kind of actual redistribution of wealth.
Above all Hitler was a racist ideologue rather than a capitalist or socialist.
Now, while he may have been one of the most famous fascists, he was not the only one.
When you talk Fascism, you can't help but talk about Mussolini. Mussolini was openly opposed to the "state super-capitalism" as he called it. He favored, what he termed "heroic capitalism". He morphed these ideas into a system which allowed private holder-ship and control of capital and industry while giving government interventionist powers in industries affecting national interest. This is the perversion of the capitalist system by nationalism. Private capital and industry being subverted under the guise of national interest by an authoritarian government.
In Japan we can see this play out as well.
Right-wing elements in Japan, including industrialists, military officers, and the nobility, had long opposed democracy as an anathema to national unity. Military cliques began to dominate the national government starting in the 1930s. A major militarist nationalist movement in Japan from the 1920s to the 1930s was the Imperial Way Faction "Kodoha" of which future wartime Prime Minister Hideki T?j? was a part. In 1936, Japan and Germany signed the Anti-Comintern Pact, aimed at countering the USSR.
You do make some fair points. I have to disagree with the idea that fascism is capitalistic in nature.
"we are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions." - Adolf Hitler May 1, 1927
-Hitler initiated public work schemes such as Strength Through Joy; increased benefits for workers for the increased levels of production (creation of jobs through government)
-around-the-clock child care centers when the women went back into the work force (state sponsored education; the state raised a generation of children)
-Nationalized health care- doctors were paid by the government (money was poured into Nationalized preventive medicine; almost none for research)
-The establishment of the Gestapo (a police state to put down any form of free speech)
- Nationalized production to help with unemployment
This is different when compared to capitalistic ideology. (another point, earlier when I was saying socialism I was meaning communism; some of the books I've read on both ideas I have come to the conclusion that communism and fascism derive from the idea of socialism)
on a side note, I do enjoy arguing with you on this matter; I think this is a good debate. If you teach me something on it then thank you sir
As far as the economics go.
You seem to be making the argument that because fascism and socialism are both collectivist activities they're equivocal. Collectivism is simply a tool however, not a economic or political philosophy. Fascism uses collectivism to ensure the needs of the state are met. This could mean military conquests, economic independence, resource exploitation, etc.... Socialism uses collectivism to ensure the needs of the populous are met. This would mean allocation of resources in such a way as to minimize socioeconomic gaps.
To further expand on the differences between Socialism and Fascism, let's look at how industry is managed in each system
Socialism: An economic and social theory that seeks to maximize wealth and opportunity for all people through public ownership and control of industries and social services.
Fascism: A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
Historically, fascist economies have been largely capitalist in nature rather than socialist. This is undeniable when you look at the rhetoric that fascists used to repeatedly stand in opposition to the socialist agenda. Traditionally communists, Marxists, etc... were all persecuted by fascist governments. The Nazis favored corporatism and class collaboration for assuming—as opposed to the Socialists—that the existence of inequality and the division of society into classes are a good thing. This is in direct contrast to any form of socialism. The promotion of socioeconomic classes, by definition, can't be socialist.
Yes, Sorelianism/National syndicalism are the precursors to fascism. However, Sorel was a revisionist of Marxism, and in 1910 announced his abandonment of socialist literature and claimed in 1914, using an aphorism of Benedetto Croce that "socialism is dead" due to the "decomposition of Marxism". Sorel became a supporter of Maurrassian integral nationalism beginning in 1909 that influenced his works.
Sorelianism also has very right wing roots.
Interest in Sorelian thought arose in the French political right, particularly by French nationalist Charles Maurras of Action Française and his supporters. While Maurras was a staunch opponent of Marxism, he was supportive of Sorelianism for its opposition to liberal democracy. Maurras famously stated "a socialism liberated from the democratic and cosmopolitan element fits nationalism well as a well made glove fits a beautiful hand". In the summer of 1909, Sorel endorsed French integral nationalism and praised Maurras.
Sorelianism then became Syndicalism
The collaboration between the integral nationalism of Action Française and the revolutionary syndicalism of Georges Sorel began in 1909.
In the early 20th century, nationalists and syndicalists were increasingly influencing each other in Italy. From 1902 to 1910, a number of Italian revolutionary syndicalists including Arturo Labriola, Agostino Lanzillo, Angelo Oliviero Olivetti, Alceste De Ambris, Filippo Corridoni and Sergio Panunzio sought to unify the Italian nationalist cause with the syndicalist cause and had entered into contact with Italian nationalist figures such as Enrico Corradini. These Italian national syndicalists held a common set of principles: the rejection of bourgeois values, democracy, liberalism, Marxism, internationalism, and pacifism while promoting heroism, vitalism, and violence. Many of these national syndicalist proponents would go on to become Fascists
So Historically it is a right wing policy.
In essence Fascism and Socialism are ideological brothers, both stemming from the same
Socialism-1. any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods. 2- a system of society or group living in which there is no private
Collectivism- the moral stance, political philosophy, ideology, or social outlook that emphasizes the significance of groups- their identities, gials, rights, outcomes, etc.
Altruism- the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others
Statism- a political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs.
Fascism is built on the moral premise that the collective is sovereign. The individual only exists to serve the collective and the group (nation, race) can do whatever it wishes to the particular individual in order to serve it's own interest, the individual is urged to sacrifice himself/herself to the group (authoritarian state)
Your idea of fascism stemming from World War 1 are false. The ideological roots of fascism have been traced to the 1800s by Sorelianism, which is considered to be the precursor to fascism by the French revolutionary Georges Sorel.
Without the ideas of collectivism, altruism, and the idea of an all powerful state, and the abdication of property rights neither Socialism or Fascism could exist
This is absolutely false. Fascism came to rise during World War 1 in Italy in OPPOSITION to Liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism.
It is based on nationalism, not socialism. The fascist economic policy does NOT attempt to distribute wealth equally. Fascists strive for an economic state called autarky. Autarky is a quality of being independent. For a state, that means the fascists' goal is to achieve economic security independently from international trade through various protectionist and interventionist policies. These policies are often inline with war efforts since another aspect of Fascism is militarism as it is derived from nationalism.
The fascist economic model is most often described as a Mixed-Economy. The concept of "state monopoly capitalism" (MMC) was born from Fascism. It is roughly the same idea as dirigisme (an economic system where the state exerts a strong directive influence over investment. It designates a capitalist economy with a strong directive, as opposed to a merely regulatory role for the state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirigisme).
To further illustrate this point, let's look at the relations between workers and employers. Fascism was guided by the principles of social Darwinism: the strongest prosper, while the weaker are rooted out. In economic practice this meant on the one hand, protecting the interests of successful businessmen, and on the other the destruction of trade unions and other organizations of the working class and "the use of extreme violence to suppress the working class and all working people." - Gaetano Salvemini
Marxism is obviously in favor of workers unions and would be anti-business/anti-capital. This should be the easiest way to distinguish fascism from marxism/socialism.
The way I tend to think of these systems and how they interact with the political scale is this:
Fascism is a perversion of the Capitalist system by nationalism (thus right wing) while Communism is generally the perversion of Socialism by nationalism (thus left wing).
Fascism (nationalism/ statism) much like communism is the public ownership of production, therefore the abolition of private property. Under fascism you retain the right to private property but it's only a semblance, the government holds total power over its use. Fascist Germany and Italy the citizens retained the responsibilities of owning private property but did not have the freedom to act or have any if the advantages of ownership. Under Socialism the government has the advantages of ownership without any responsibilities for ownership, since the the government does not hold any title to the property but have the right to use it.
If you would like more proof: look up "Adolf Hitler on Nazism and Socialism"
Fascism and Communism both derive from collectivism which is associated with Socialism. The need of society is greater than the need of the individual
how? I explained why fascism is not based on socialism. can you explain how it is? if not then you must concede the point.
Hmmm.... nah I'm sorry you are still wrong
no, you are wrong. Fascism is not derived from socialism. Seeing as socialism is the left wing, i'm not sure how you can think a far right ideology can be socialist. Fascism doesn't have a single definition, it is interpreted differently by different people. But at it's core is control by a dictator, which is not socialist. It promotes the right of a supposedly superior people to dominate, while purging society of supposedly inferior elements. This too is the exact opposite of socialism. There are socialist elements in fascism which makes it harder to define, but it most certainly is not socialist in origin.
and I'm not just talking about the Nazi party
no, fascism derived from socialism. You are right it is extreme right wing. But the fact remains fascism is based off of socialism
also capitalism is a critical component of fascism as well.
fascism is not a socialist system. it is traditionally placed at the far right of the political spectrum. it is a an extreme version of authoritarian nationalism. there is very little about if you could call socialist. the misconception comes from the fact that the Nazi party called themselves national socialists. they weren't socialists, it was just a name. they were hard core, right wing nationalists.
Alright that's a fair argument. But doesn't fascism derive from socialism, an extreme socialized ideology; like communism. But the right-wing politics in the US derive from a capitalistic ideal. I don't think it's a fair assessment to say right-wingers are fascist, yes there are some extremist but in all conservatism is not fascism.
Because right-wing politicians are the ones mirroring fascist ideals at the moment. Racism, xenophobia, and a willingness to disregard the law, human rights and anything else that opposes them are currently marring the right wing at present.