The debate "Women have more implemented advantages over men in america" was started by
August 4, 2019, 5:32 pm.
10 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 17 people are on the disagree side.
People are starting to choose their side.
It looks like most people are against to this statement.
mtbtheboss posted 3 arguments to the agreers part.
historybuff posted 1 argument, TheExistentialist posted 3 arguments, Nemiroff posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.
mwest0097, RoyDierlijk, mtbtheboss and 7 visitors agree.
historybuff, Nemiroff, TheExistentialist, vaibhav_Verma, Jane and 12 visitors disagree.
I dont think its that hard to demonstrate that there is empirical harm. the problem is quantifying them to determine how much harm. although putting a specific number to the value you get from your security to travel at night, it is undoubtably of no small benefit.
economic independence is not as related to wage gap as one would assume. low wage women often have the smallest wage gap, as everyone earns minimum wage. it is in the better paid fields that the differences arise. the biggest difference come from people who are probably over compensated to begin with so economic independence isnt an issue. it's simply a matter of equity.
between the elite tilted effect of the wage gap and its questionable nature, I would disregard it as a side issue if the solutions werent so light and overall beneficial. just reveal average salaries and eliminate previous salary question. no forced beuracracy or any heavy handed measures. even if they are wrong, their solutions will still be of benefit and no consequences.
I agree that many subjects aren't discussed fully or at all. However, it's hard to argue empirically that women are negatively affected by under representation in government (although that should make logical sense). It is also hard to quantify how much appearance/expectations harm women, it is hard to quantify how much the quality of life is affected by the threat of violence women face in their daily lives, etc.... As a male, I can walk downtown in the middle of the night and feel relatively safe; the same cannot be said for women.
I don't know if focusing on the wage gap is necessarily misleading since economic independence is a primary factor for the advancement of feminist causes all over the world. We constantly see that as women enter the workforce and gain economic independence that their ability to stand up for their rights and advance their own agendas is greatly increased. It also seems that wage equality is a good gauge for how we view women in general. If we valued them as equal in society as a whole, then we should equal their contribution to the labor market equal as well.
it seems like the wage gap is dominating this conversation. and although it is the easiest issue to quantify, it is by far not the most pressing.
social double standard with expectations of doing the majority of household chores and child rearing for free and then told they arent putting in enough hours. maybe when household chores become more equally shared we can talk about employment equality.
under representation means that most women's issues are deliberated by men... which is always a good outcome. not that men are poor decision makers but I wouldnt want a bunch of women dictating solutions for mens issues. I doubt they have a full grasp of our concerns.
expectations of appearance mean women are forced to devote several hours on makeup and sit in uncomfortable clothes. sure some women willingly choose to sacrifice comfort, but that doesnt change that all women are expected to make that sacrifice regardless of preference.
the fact that we judge women leaders, actors, or just coworkers based on appearance, but not nearly as much for men. Hillary was shamed for yelling yet that was all Bernie and trump did on their campaigns with no complaints. the double standards are the biggest women's issue imo.
so this discussion focusing only on the wage gap is itself misleading in a topic on feminism in general. it's just the hot and easy topic of the moment.
What you fail to see is that most of the jobs in the educational sector are salaried positions not hourly therefore none of what you said applies. The same goes for administrative positions, social worker positions, Chief executives, most managerial jobs, etc... . While every industry is different, the fact that the salaried positions in industries largely dominated by a female workforce show a wage discrepancy is pretty poignant evidence. Your anecdotal evidence is the weakest type of evidence and only addresses outlier stats like OT which are only relevant a) in jobs that have hourly wages b) are company specific since not every company has OT c) in industries that have both salary and hourly positions (like nursing) we can see a pay discrepancy in both wage models.
If we look at nursing (again, a female dominated workforce)
When paid by salary, men made $89,000 vs. $81,000 for their female counterparts
Of those paid on an hourly rate, male RNs made $82,000 a year vs. $78,000 for women
When we look at these stats, we actually see that the discrepancy in wages is higher in salaried positions than in hourly positions. This is the exact opposite of what we'd expect if your claim about OT accounting for the wage gap were true.
The article only talks about their weekly take home income, it never mentions if anyone worked overtime, did special assignments, etc. Which men are statistically more likely to do. It also never mentions hourly/annual income, which is actually what matters, not weekly take home. Because I work some 75 hour weeks and I work some 40 hour weeks, but another officer that I work with who is female and makes the same hourly I know has never worked more than a 45 hour week. We get paid the same but I often make way more than her because I put in way more time; something this article never bothers with
"women get the same pay if they do the same job."
studies say you're wrong about this. The general argument is that women don't do high risk/high paying jobs and therefore the overall pay gap is an artificial construct. However, if we look at female dominated industries such as teaching nursing, etc.... we can see that even in those industries men make more than women doing the SAME job.
Elementary/middle school teachers weekly earnings: Women: $982 Men: $1148 That means women (on average) earn 14.5% less than males.
Nursing (weekly earnings): Women: $1156 Men: $1271 Meaning women earn 9% less than males
Education administrators (weekly earnings): Women: $1245 Men: $1563 Meaning they earn 20.3% less
Here are more examples:
Your claim is therefore factually wrong. If you'd like to argue this, please provide actual evidence of wages.
In case you didn't realise you also said "the wage gap is a myth", which means it doesn't exist... Then you went on to explain why it exists. An inconsistent argument isn't convincing.
Also with everything else you spoke about, if it doesn't translate into money or power then it's not really a good proxy for advantage is it? More women go to college? So? Not all degrees are equal, not all careers are equal, and women are still more inclined to take the 'noble route' (which I call altruistic) which gives them less power and advantage in society. College attendance rate is not a good proxy for success because there are so many other factors at play.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "implementated advantage" though. If you mean society consciously gives women advantages men don't have then sure. That's a part of trying to balance clear differences that disadvantage women. But overall the advantage is still with men.
The cause for the wage gap isn't relevant to discussing the unequal distribution of wealth between the sexes which is what creates more advantage for men
I meant to reply to your "wage gap is a myth" comment
Are you talking about my arguement or the others?
Power in the USA comes from wealth. The wage gap shows a statistically significant disparity of wealth between men and women. We all know the cause of the wage gap is far more than gender discrimination, a disposition towards altruism (good for others, not good for you) is probably the main reason women are in more low-paid work, but the cause of the gap isn't relevant to your statement.
women did were discriminated against by the government in the past... but now they aren't. and by the way, 56% of college students are women... so please, tell me more about the wage gap when more women are graduating college and setting up for better careers(statistic via theatlantic.com)
for one the wage gap is a myth.. women get the same pay if they do the same job. the wage gap is created because many women make the noble choice of staying home without a job and taking care of their children. 2, they get less representation because they run less frequently. 3, women have several advantages: 1. they almost always are rewarded custody of children 2. rape allegations against a man can ruin his life... an actual rape charge against a women isn't even as severe on average as it is to a man, and when you count prison, more men are raped annually than women in America. and a third of all judges are female... it just so happens that alot of women make a choice to not do it, and either choice is admirable.
Like what? they get paid less, get less representation in government, are less likely to get promoted etc. They are systematically disadvantaged by society. What exactly are their advantages?