Women Should Be Entitled To Abortion

November 29, 2015, 4:15 am

Agree107 Disagree90

54%
46%

The debate "Women Should Be Entitled To Abortion" was started by Marvelgirl2002 on November 29, 2015, 4:15 am. 107 people are on the agree side of this discussion, while 90 people are on the disagree side. That might be enough to see the common perception. It looks like most of the people in this community are on the agreeing side of this statement.

historybuff posted 3 arguments, Freyja posted 4 arguments, Marvelgirl2002 posted 1 argument, sagitario posted 1 argument, neveralone posted 1 argument, Nemiroff posted 11 arguments, Radhikadhawan posted 2 arguments to the agreers part.
scotthansonMC posted 8 arguments, historybuff posted 8 arguments, Razor posted 1 argument, QueenQuirks posted 4 arguments, Marvelgirl2002 posted 1 argument, SwaggerPoptart posted 4 arguments, Thejw posted 1 argument, neveralone posted 61 arguments, Nemiroff posted 7 arguments, Blue_ray posted 27 arguments, rob5998 posted 2 arguments to the disagreers part.

Marvelgirl2002, Wookie, Mousie, WaspToxin, AnnaRrei, Skeetc15, Yuki_Amayane, Kushagra, godisjustsomethingwemade, AlexRose1517, Rokai, Sli, MissFlawless, britt9790, omgflyingbannas, Freyja, NaggingNut, cancer_wins, RyanWakefield, Eilon, sagitario, kaitchunn, danielle, Donald_J_Trump, psychorejection, Bodaciouslady16, Aston, Addison28, PrincessTia18, DemonLlama, Zuhayr, bigB, Nemiroff, DebateKing1000, stucks11, historybuff, metheonlyme, RandomGirl, emshanley, Argument_fightme and 67 visitors agree.
AstroSpace, scotthansonMC, Alex, jellybeanie, iSmuggleJews, kane, windu2420, waynemc15, StarSoul, alexoliver, Razor, ProudAmerican888, rob5998, ReadyToBegin, carocupit, SwaggerPoptart, sabrina, dalton7532, NyKai, JLabang123, mherzer, blakelovesjesus, moneybagboyz, Thejw, phantrash55, Blue_ray, TheTrueScotsman, north, RogueAmerican, GodisGod, thereal, Eruptionz, neveralone, Your_dad, Christian, Frank, Delta_Force01 and 53 visitors disagree.

Radhikadhawan
replied to...

Cool!

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

yes and yours?

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

N urs?

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

awesome last name

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

All right! Cool!!

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

My name is Mark Aufburg Zurkeinstien

2 years, 11 months ago

Is blue Ray your name??

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

Sometimes it is though! U have to cut iron using an axe

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

instead i have bullied them. hahaha.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

All right then be a complainer. Tell your teacher about those bullies

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
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i wanna become a cardiologist not Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold of India. Violence isnt the solution.

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

that would be a school shooting then. i dont wanna become a killer.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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Really! Students bully in dps! One branch of dps is here too. Though I have never faced problem of bullying in my school. It is really sad. I must suggest take a knife and kill those students!! Hahahaha

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

school bullying is a big problem in the DPS. Sometimes i feel like driving a tank into the school just like GTA. But i wont do it . dont worry. iam very peaceful.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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I m sorry... Sometimes it comes by mistake..

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

i dont understand hindi. only english please.

2 years, 11 months ago

Mind reading huh! Hahaha

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

How come??

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

say what???

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

Holy child Sr sec school.. Bhot hi sda hua h

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

your school?

2 years, 11 months ago

I thought u might say that

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

Cool!! :-)

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

i have just completed 15 in september and now i'm 16. Anyway iam studying in eleventh grade in DPS Guwahati.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

9 N u??

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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Hey no u don't need to apologise for that.. I know girls have more interest in fashion(clothes and all) but maybe I just really don't like it... I want to do something maybe big and Good. :-)

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

in which grade you study in? 9 or 10?

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
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i said model because every girl that i have met in my high school said that they wanna be models. since then, there's a misconception in my mind that all girls love fashion and modelling. so if i was wrong about you , I apologize.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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Model! Hahaha I thought abt it but I really want serve my country.. Advocate

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
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model???? or maybe an engineer.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

What do you think I must be aspiring to be.?

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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Both doctors.. Huh.. Nice:-)

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
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as of me. cardiologist.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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parasitologist

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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What do u aspire to be??

2 years, 11 months ago

ues is supposed to be yes

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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for the most part ues

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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That means I was right... Isn't it.. Hahaha

2 years, 11 months ago

yes. dirty dish blonde,ouch on poor style:-), no on basketball, I do have a bunch, yes, definitely in my opinion(haha)

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

okay. you are 18 year old. you have a black hair but poor style 1940's . you play basketball for your college team i.e. you are tall. You love the company of a pet. you are white. handsome.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

u did I was just lieing to make u feel better.jk u were right.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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Oh thanks.. I thought I was saying all wrong

2 years, 11 months ago

doing college and highschool, dirty dish blond shabby hair(think 1930s America that shabby:-)) tall, I am slim, always alone but with God, definitely, idk on sensitive,yes, definitely:-), try to be, very.

u did pretty good

2 years, 11 months ago

Don't tell me I was all wrong... Plz :-D

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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Although I must tell you I am very bad at making guesses.. But you are a young college boy with golden shabby hair, tall height, slim fit, never alone(loves and believes in God a lot) sensitive, devoted, funny, respectful, understanding and gentleman types

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

go for it. hold nothing back:-) haha

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

Should I tell what I think about you??

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

I hope we will help everyone as much as we can. we will see.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

to be honest I'm good at reading people so it wasn't very fair.:-)

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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Coz Indians admire America and pity India.. Although they can't even contribute even a hair to the nation which is really sad

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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U have made quite correct guesses on my nature though :-)

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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ok. thought u meant u were native American but Indian makes more since. why did we ever started calling native Americans Indians I will never know

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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Ya I live in India.. In the northern parts near Delhi specially haryana

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

dang I'm good:)haha

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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sure

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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ok I thought by Indian u meant u lived in India

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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I am an Indian

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
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can i guess about you tommorow? its bed time for me.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

I m not leaning, no glasses, black hair, black eyes, fair skin, oval face and rest is correct

2 years, 11 months ago

will not be offended by anything so go all out??

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

u can too if u want.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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guessing ur from India or nearby by the name.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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I would of said 16-17

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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sure:-)

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
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shall i say what i think about you?

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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young either a teen or you adult, long hair, leaning on having glasses, very independent, probably popular depending on where u r, I want to say blue eyes, black hair (idk why everyone has black hair to me), funny, determined, free thinker, smart.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

15

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

not so close. iam 173 cm. i have a lighter and a fair skin. rest all are correct.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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If this is the case I would like to know what u think about me too..

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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wait youngsters? how old r u?

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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nooo! ok thats fine. my "code name?" doesn't really say what sex I am.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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definitely. which is great. we need this

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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I think u come from India (haha). I would say ur 6'7 black hair. maybe glasses but leaning on more without. male. makes good grades. mainly the sarcastic/smart/funny guy.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

You know what in the beginning I thought all of you were girls... Sorry to say don't mind

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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I also feel there are less adults on this app... Mainly youngsters

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
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thanks dude. What do you think about me? i.e. my appearance,my behavioir,etc. i just wanted to know.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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u got good instincts then.
probably how I shorten the words and the words themselves was a subconscious clue

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
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i just felt as if you were an young guy

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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a) where u get ur age range?
b) u were pretty close.

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
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yes. why?

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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did u think I was 19-25?

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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oh. ok.

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
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i'm 16. i just wanted to know your age.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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18. why?

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
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are you between 19-25?

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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Haha haha!! I liked this

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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we were lower middle class. we did okay.

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
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was your family economically stable?

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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first two definitely we even made up some games that were great. though we didn't usually have the camping trips.( big family=big bill) but I can say we had/have a great life.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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not really. things really start rolling when insemination happens because nowadays there's a good chance if they let them have it that they will be born. though what u said is right. my side says it's murder while urs says it isnt because they arnt conscious yet. so we really can't settle this until there is a confirmation on when they get a soul/self-consciousness. for me it's at insemination. for u wasn't it when the brain gets attached?

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

it must have been a lot of fun to play counter strike and hide and seek or maybe to go on a camping ride.

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

the difference is I see it as a potential someone, not someone now. heck, every time people go on a date and don't have sex they destroyed a potential someone's future

2 years, 11 months ago

small actually. u get used to bunk bed sleeping.haha. my mom would marry a guy, think she loved him, then have a kid or kids sometimes twins, then would divorce. though she has been happily married for 10+ years now and the guys good so. yeah we are a bit big.haha

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
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17 bros and sis? oh my god. i cant even imagine that. was your house too big? iam just curious. please let me know. never heard of such large family.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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okay but does that make it okay to destroy someone's future before it even starts. also i was talking about America. not sure if I even have a say in what goes on in India. though I would like to help everyone it might be seen as pushing my ideas where they dont belong.idk

2 years, 11 months ago

the situation is also very different. although the poor are definitely much more poor in India, the cost of living is much highest as well. we also don't have such large families, so having an army of sisters and aunts to watch your kids while you go work or study is not always an option. here having a child while young and poor is the same as destroying your future.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

it's sadly very common in America (idk if u live here or not) and it's sad. the most common reason I hear isnt because it's life or death but that they just don't want him/her. also I understand the big family thing. I have 17 brothers and sisters:-)

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

It depends on the situation... I am living in country where women give birth to eight children.. (hahaha) here women just don't go around hating kids... Here we avoid aborting as much possible.. Abortion is rare only when extremely necessary.. That is why I don't see it as a murder..

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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that's where we are coming from. we see it as murder. not a choice. we are simply trying to save a murder victim before they become one.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

No

2 years, 11 months ago

I'm not saying kill the source. I'm saying save a product when the source just goes on a whim to end a life. the most valuable product in the world.

no its not. protection is diff. than getting pregnant.h having an abortion isn't a cure. its murder.babies are not a sickness that needs to be cured. they are life that deserve it just as much as the mother. if u saw abortion as murder would u stand behind it still?

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

And 50000 women each year... Is it right to kill the source just because we want to save the product.. If something can produce 4 items so will it be right to destroy the thing if it is not able to give you 1. Anyways most of the abortions like this take place when the mother gets pregnant unknowingly or unwillingly.. It is just similar to using protection.. That is precaution and this is cure...

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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did u know that 954,000 babies are murdered annually in America alone? who's in the wrong there?

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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Do u know that savita hallappanavar died in Ireland in the hospital when she was not allowed abortion... She asked her family so many times to terminate her pregnancy coz she was feeling severe back pain and was miscarrying... Who is the murderer in this case... This stupid decision cost 2 lives

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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and if they decide that they shouldn't have it? also to me this has been murder. though we "scientifically" can't prove it, it still is to me. it's one of many reasons I can't support it

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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I know some women say they don't want.. But if they are wrong it will be wrong on our part too by women are not entitled to abortion

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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I do appreciate.i know their pain. I have seen it more times than I can count. (particularly after an abortion)
but I also know their joy. something I think they don't even know about until after. I've seen so many women say they hate kids and then when they have some they couldn't even think of saying such things.
they have brains but when ur pregnant u naturally have more hormones in u then when u face death most people lose their rational reasoning and emotions in place of fear.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

that's fine.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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And I have read all the 146 arguments.. And given my reasons too for saying everyone is entitled to do whatever they wish particularly in cases when the matter is so delicate as abortion.. You are treating as if women have no brains and they cannot take their decision whether they want to have the child in the particular situation or not... You must know when she gives birth to a child her responsibilities are tripalled and she suffers the pain equal to the fracture of 20 bones. Humans just don't know how to appreciate.... They only know how to criticise

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

Sorry I know it was just not appearing right now

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
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yes usually press the reply button on the right corner of the posts to see who it's for and on what

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

Is this for me??

2 years, 11 months ago

also look below on other reasons

2 years, 11 months ago
rob5998
replied to...

no one is entitled to anything

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

Really?? How can you say that??

2 years, 11 months ago

no they shouldn't

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

percentage. keeps changing it

2 years, 11 months ago

the ? is supposed to be a ?

2 years, 11 months ago

100? certain.

yes. kind of caveman like for now but I'm sure we will explain it some day:-)

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

how can anyone be what? not sure what part of my post your asking that about.

we certainly don't know where consciousness comes from or exactly what it is, but we can ID it when we see it. if it doesn't move on its own, it's definitely not conscious.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

how can anyone be? we don't even understand self-consciousness.:-) we can only go with what we feel is right.

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

self consciousness I can agree with. in fact since you brought the soul into the discussion i have been considering the correlation.

would something like the divine spark not create some physical manifestation upon entering? the only worthy manifestation would be that of consciousness or voluntary movement. that is rather late stage in the development but I don't think the bible quite specifies this time. I believe it is nonbiblical dogma that set the time period at conception. not 100% on this.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

does anyone for abortion want to pick up where he left off?

2 years, 11 months ago

but back to what this vine is about. what would u say is another OK situation that's fine to get an abortion

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

I would also say at least what I see how girls have been nowadays. they are more actively seeking sex and are showing more. these two things perhaps not intentionally that they want sex. this might tell the creeps whose mind set I don't fully understand that hey she is available. though again I don't understand there mind set but I think these things play a factor

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

U know what is increasing the chances of rape, the extra sensuality of boys, the mindset... The most difficult thing to change in this world

2 years, 11 months ago

also u never said anything about the mother and the hormonal thing I put on there and I would like ur opinion on it.and also the long run plan

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

we need to figure out what seems to increase chances of rape and stamp them out while increasing what makes it get lowered.

2 years, 11 months ago

Blue_ray has part of my stance correct. rape is a hard thing I won't say it's not but the baby had nothing to do with that. thus situation first needs a psychologist to talk to her until he/she says that she can properly make the choice. being raped has tons of issues in it and if it happens no matter of u get pregnant or not u need to see a psychiatrist

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
replied to...

There are already so many laws but this is like an ever increasing this.. In 2012 24923 cases of rape were reported in India and keep in mind there are many that do not get reported. And one more thing India in counted in one of the lowest per capita rate of rapes

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

neveralone just wanted to say that we could minimise rape cases through law. so that abortion doesn't become an necessity.

2 years, 11 months ago
Radhikadhawan
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Why??!! When some stranger forces her to have sexual relationship with him and she gets pregnant there is no one to help her in that situation, so abortion becomes necessary

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

how is the rape one needed?

eventually in a long run plan I think it could be stopped in the situations where it isn't required.

oh so ur giving the decision of life or death to someone who is really hormonal at that time. probably alone. and in no shape to make such a decision. that sounds logical. (being sarcastic)

2 years, 11 months ago

I actually believe that women should be allowed to abort. There is no question of banning it or stopping them from doing so. There many cases where it becomes really necessary. Like if someone rapes her or there is any complication during the birth of the child. A woman undergoes a lot of pain while giving birth to a baby and it will be really silly of us if we object her decision to abort

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

we were debating each situation apart instead of as a whole

2 years, 11 months ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

Extending that for all cases is not representative of the current issue.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

idk I was saying each depends on the situation for most people.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

it's what I believe in. u could probably think of it like self-consciousness.

2 years, 11 months ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

And that is the majority of abortions?

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

is there a reason you put the soul's entry there? or just random guess?

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

see the problem I see with that is a) she is drugged up b)she has a lot of hormones in her at this point c) I think the dad maybe. there really is no right answer just our opinions. I think the dad because it will affect his life at almost the same level and he has less stuff impending his judgement

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

i think it should depend on the wife.

2 years, 11 months ago

I was talking about who each might think about saving and me as well as asking ur opinion.

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

iam confused

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

well the perception of the mom could go either way since she's got a ton of hormones in her and drugs , dad again either way, on doctors, how do u choose who lives and who dies? too tough, for child, idk haven't met one I could ask:-), for me, if possible needs to be talked out between wife and husband if not husband should choose since it will affect his life the most and he isn't the one on drugs and hormones. both that hamper judgment calls. u?

2 years, 11 months ago
Blue_ray
replied to...

suppose a mother is going to die if abortion is not choosen.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

which exact situation r u talking about? also I would say it depends on perspective

2 years, 11 months ago

abortion isnt wrong. its sometimes necessary on medical grounds.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

I would put the child being conscious somewhere after the body has the general shape and before conception. the exact point when he/she knows there alive and conscious idk. but I think the soul is there before hand but again idk on exactly when. these are very hard things to study since we don't even know what they are.

2 years, 11 months ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

I honestly dont know.

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

but if that is the case, how do we settle the legal question?

I don't think that the public would accept on an agree to disagree and do nothing postion, actually that's exactly what we've been given thus far.

2 years, 11 months ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

Exactly its a silly argument. We can only have it with the same prerequisites of personhood. But we have differing parameters for it, and any reasoning contrary is unrelated to our individual points. I will acknowledge consciousness, but to me it is trivial to the debate. Likewise that is how you feel about conception.

2 years, 11 months ago

you are free to make an argument as to why you feel it is an individual at inception, assuming reason to back it up. however what I was trying to say is that you can't say "it's alive @ conception" because it was just as alive before conception. I made no mandate for consciousness, that is my opinion. I can give reasons, I have before, but I wouldn't call it anything more than my opinion. as I've stated before, not even the experts agree.

as for objective events, there are many. both consciousness AND conception are objective events no? as are first voluntary motions, heart beat, presence of limbs, or multitude of others.

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

I did add that implication, but I didn't make anything a must. I also added "and/or individuality". you do understand the word "or" right?

2 years, 11 months ago

"like I said, it is always alive. the question is when it becomes an individual and/or when it is conscious"

You added an implication that you must be conscious and cognizant to be a person. And as I have claimed before, you cannot reach that conclusion with only evidence.

2 years, 11 months ago

oh I agree. I have never been debating when life begins. I've been debating when a person exists. the two are not the same thing.

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

I did not confine it only to cognition. I also added a subjective starting point of individuality that is open to debate. my main point that "when it becomes alive" is silly as it was never not alive. life doesn't start.

2 years, 11 months ago

except scientific evidence. being able to think is a critical part of being a person. if a fetus does not have this then it cannot be thought of as a person in a legal sense.

if you choose to see it as one based on your opinion or beliefs that is fine. but you cannot try to use the law to force that opinion on others.

2 years, 11 months ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

There is nothing to validate it over any other starting point.

2 years, 11 months ago

you don't know what the word arbitrary means do you. arbitrary would be picking the point a fetus becomes a person at random. using the available evidence to come to a logical and reasoned answer is the exact opposite of arbitrary.

2 years, 11 months ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

Now that isnt fair. You have confined the argument to personhood only beginning at cognition. What Im saying is we know when certain characteristics develop. We place an arbitrary start at some point. All the research in the world cannot validate a claim that one of these os the start. We can only err on the side of caution.

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

you'd also have to prove that the soul enters at inception.

if the body is the vessel of the soul, then how can a soul enter an incomplete vessel. maybe at some point, but not when it's analogous to a pile of wood on the ground.

2 years, 11 months ago

I'm not sure if souls exist or not, so I can't base a decision on them.

There is not a consensus about when a fetus becomes an individual, because it depends on so many variables. There is debate about which is the most important element, as well as individual variability when changes occur.

If you are interested in learning more about both historical and current views of when personhood begins, this would be a jumping off point. Wikipedia isn't a fantastic resource itself, but it does give links to other sources from various perspectives, so you can learn other viewpoints.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood?wprov=sfla1

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

I believe in a soul and that it happens upon insemination but I obviously can't prove a soul. I am running on faith on this one.

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

like I said, it is always alive. the question is when it becomes an individual and/or when it is conscious.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

I don't think there's a consensus on abortion either.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

I look at the experts opinion but I make my own as well.if I agree with them or not depends on what it is like when a baby should be considered such.

so pretty we only have a differing of when said life should be considered.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

OK so essentially between u and me the only differing opinion is when the child should be considered alive.

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

just to be clear, the post you are replying to was not my opinion. I said that if the details are all subjective then how can we make regulations over it, but I do not think the details are subjective.

once the cerebral cortex activates and the fetus begins to think and feel, I believe abortion should only be done in medical emergencies. the cerebral cortex activates late in the game and I am open to opinions on why earlier, but I would be against non-emergency abortions after that point.

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

obviously experts are flawed. they are not God, however their opinions are far far more valid than the opinions of people less informed on the subject. when it comes to medicine, of course you are free to make your own decisions, but if you seek 2nd and 3rd expert opinions and they all agree, I would consider you fully within your rights to disagree, but also very stupid.

a strong expert CONCENSUS (such as the international concensus on climate change) is pretty much a certainty.

if you do not trust experts, who do you trust for your views? laypeople that happen to agree with you to begin with? I'm not talking about abortion that as far as I know has no expert consensus, but a general view of trusting expert opinions/consensus.

2 years, 11 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Where do you look to research? I look to experts in the field and research there.

I can understand why you feel as you do, and I can understand the emotional response from people who feel the same. To not fight against abortion believing as you do would essentially be standing idle while people were being murdered, which is unconscionable.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

idk on everyone else but for me that is a child upon insemination and it's really hard to see him/her as anything else. I know when u think it should be called a baby so tell me this. once u consider it a baby would u still be fine with her aborting? this is where I am I see a child being killed and each time I hear a part of this story a part of me dies because life is precious and should be treated as so

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

it seems flawed to just trust somone because their an expert. I have heard plenty of times when expert doctors misdiagnosed someone. their opinion holds more consideration but ur decisions should be on what u have researched and found true instead of someone else

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

wouldn't the idea that there can be no definitive answer and it's all opinion mean that it should have no regulation and women who want it can make their own moral judgement?

2 years, 11 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

So what you seem to be saying is that since there can be no single, definitive answer, there is no point using the guidelines set by experts. If that is your stance, it seems flawed.

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

can you give a more detailed example without a,b,c, or yada yada? cause that says nothing.

also, life does not start after c or before a. life is continuous. there is no point at which the developing fetus or its components are ever dead.

2 years, 11 months ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

Cognitive function begins at B. Ok, cognitive function starts at B, but i believe A or C or yada yada are the beginnings of life. You can't have your definition directly from factsm They are superficial.

2 years, 11 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

I didn't say it was. I said I defer to experts rather than my own less knowledgeable opinion.

2 years, 11 months ago

women are girls. now this is a fact to me but wouldn't always be to somone who's a transgender.

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

care to demonstrate?

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

true

2 years, 11 months ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

I can use the same facts and come to a different conclusion entirely supported by those facts. The facts dont make a difference. It isnt a provable concept.

2 years, 11 months ago

Sorry about the delay. Working today.

I defer to the medical and legal definitions of when a fetus becomes a separate being. I am not an expert, and won't claim to be

2 years, 11 months ago

i wouldn't say less but again there is no right and wrong answer on this one. only opinion. actually on a side note wouldn't the doctors need to save the baby's life since it would be longer?

2 years, 11 months ago

it most definitely should be considered more than just a cluster of cell because of its potential, but less than an already realized human being. at least at the early cluster of cells stage.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

it has the potential therefore it should be considered more. and if u believe in an soul then it's already there. if not don't say anything about the soul thing we'll talk about that on another debate

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

will become, yes. but it isn't now. it has no feelings, no consciousness, no individuality. at the moment, it is nothing.

it can become a baby, but it is not a baby.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

u believe it's OK to kill someone just because another decided it was? that sounds like being a Hitler soldier to me.

they will have that either way.more so if they murder the child. they need to get help instead.

that "handful of cells" will become more than that. it will be a child and it deserves life just much as the mother. it is a baby.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

could u explain further please

2 years, 11 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

at what point do you believe the bunch of cells becomes a person? @psychdave

2 years, 11 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

So you feel that it is acceptable to condemn women to death rather than let them terminate the pregnancy?

You believe rape victims deserve to spend the rest of their lives with scars and trauma?

You believe that a handful of cells has more rights than a woman?

2 years, 11 months ago

that depends on whether or not we consider it a baby or an individual. I'm have not made a decisive decision in this debate, but I do know that, for example, the day after it is NOT a baby and is no different than a tumor. are you OK with the plan b morning after "abortion" (if it can even be called that abortion this point)

2 years, 11 months ago

u would force the mass genocide of the ones who have no voice?

true. but that child has the opportunity to live and we should let them. again who gets to choose who lives and who dies?

u I'm guessing are agaisnt the death sentence but u give it to these children daily and on the thousands

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

is that the baby's fault? then why are u punishing them

any quality is better than none

should anyone decide who loves and who dies?

I would disagree on this one

2 years, 11 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

So you would prefer to force permanent, body altering changes on a woman against her will?

There is no moral perfect here that makes everyone happy. No matter what someone loses in cases like these. The problem is that you are saying the father right to keep the child is more important than the mothers not wanting to have to spend 9 months carrying it, dealing with complications, and possibly dying.

http://www.babycenter.com/0_7-pregnancy-complications-to-watch-out-for_10316818.bc

Look at gestational diabetes for a good example of how it can complicate the rest of a woman's life. Would you say you should have the right to force someone else to get type 2 diabetes?

2 years, 11 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

Congratulations thejw, you failed to address all of the previous arguments in favour of stating your opinion.

You failed to address rape cases resulting in pregnancy.

You failed to address defects and complications that will reduce the quality of life of the child.

You failed to address medical complications that could kill one both mother and child.

You failed to address the complications inherent in this topic by simplifying it to the point where a life changing, brutally difficult choice is summed up with a cheap sound bite.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

and men don't get any choice in if there son or daughter can even get to have a life.how messed up is that.

2 years, 11 months ago
neveralone
replied to...

exactly what I've been saying

2 years, 11 months ago
Thejw
replied to...

I dont agree with abortion, its murder. Woman should have the right to do what they please with their bodies. Woman have the right to have as much sex as they want amd ect.. But when a woman has unprotected sex she is at a risk of getting pregnant. A woman should not have unprotected sex if she doesnt want to get pregnant. Once a woman has a human being developing in her, notice my key words ( in her ),, She does not have the right to kill it.. that baby that is not permenently attached to her therfore it is not a part of her body. Babys are not a part of a womans anatomy, if this was the case then everywoman on planet earth would be pregnant. Now if you enjoy sex so much, get your tubes tied so you cant have babies. If you are pregnant and dont want the kid, give the child up for adoption when he is born. I want you to ask yourself this. Okay so imagine, Do you enjoy life,, If you do would you be totally fine with your mothers choice to abort you if she wanted to... Would you be happy that you were given no chance of life. If a very strong person walks up to a little kitten and snaps its neck, would you feel that it was unfair.

2 years, 11 months ago

I think there should be a way to make it even without taking abortion out of the question. Idk what that is, though. Maybe make it so that women aren't constantly favored in custody cases? We've seen gay men raise children and they do it just fine so it's not like a man can't raise a child.

3 years, 4 months ago
SwaggerPoptart
replied to...

that makes no sense

3 years, 4 months ago

why should a father be forced to support a child but a mother can't be forced to even let it be alive?

3 years, 4 months ago

(from what I understand)

3 years, 4 months ago
Freyja
replied to...

They absolutely can. If you won't be there for the child, you must pay for it for the next eighteen years. Fathers don't have much of a choice if the woman decides to keep the baby.

3 years, 4 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

but men can be forced into fatherhood?

3 years, 4 months ago

A woman should be given absolute right over her body. Society should not force its expectations of motherhood on an unwilling girl/woman.

It's only when one is ready that she should choose to have a child. Key word: choice.

3 years, 4 months ago
RogueAmerican
replied to...

I apologize for my tardiness; however, why should it be made easier to do something if it were illegal. Yes people will do it, but should laws be amended so that they are never broken (ie lifting the restrictions). However I must ask: if banning abortions does nothing, should banning guns be equally futile? Commonly the idea belongs to one side (more often than not on the left) that abortion should be legal while many guns restricted.

3 years, 4 months ago
SwaggerPoptart
replied to...

That was supes long, sorry about that.

3 years, 4 months ago

I completely respect those who feel abortion is acceptable, but in my opinion it is not, unless I can 100% guarantee that my child's life will only consist of pain and/or suffering. I understand that rape is a bad thing, but I believe having the child would be allowing something good to come from it. If I knew I would die giving birth to a baby, I would not abort it. Although, I still respect those who would. And while adoption can be complex, I believe it is better than denting someone the right to live. Imagine one day, your guardian came to you and said, "I don't feel responsible enough to care for you, so now you must die." Even if a fetus isn't classified as a person, it still has the potential to be one. It has the potential to find a miracle cure, the potential to end racism, the potential to create peace. I understand that women deserve to give consent for their body being used to create a human, but I also feel that as women, we need to understand that our life choices effect someone's ability to live. I believe it is as bad as murder.

3 years, 4 months ago

It's actually from the same site you posted earlier click around you'll find it.

3 years, 5 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

where do you see that % not being ready for responsibility growing? can you please link?

3 years, 5 months ago

medical falls under the 1% sagitario. which medical is a good reason for one. which should be a higher reason but it isn't sadly.

3 years, 5 months ago

finance falls in a separate category buff.

3 years, 5 months ago
sagitario
replied to...

I hope you never receive any test results where it is said that your fetus is deformed and a life full of pain and suffering is expected for you both. I hope you don't get a letter saying your life is at risk as result of pregnancy.

And hopefully no one else but you will take this decision for you.

3 years, 5 months ago

a good reason for "not being ready for responsibility" might be that it takes alot longer to get established financially. 30 years ago you could get out of high school and get a decent job. you could be financially ready for a child pretty young.

today, if you don't have the right qualifications you're stuck in minimum wage. so a few years of schooling and a bunch of debt later you might be prepared for having children. that means alot of people who cannot care for a child that 30 years ago would have been able to.

3 years, 5 months ago

Irresponsible people are definitely at a high, there's more people in general which makes #s increase , more homeless people, more murders, more drugs, more crimes, more (Insert whatever) with more people comes more issues. Use common sense.

3 years, 5 months ago

Then why is the % of abortions for "Not being ready for responsibility" growing?

3 years, 5 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

I always agree for education!
but increasing cost of legal abortions will have the same result as banning it. women will just go where they can afford it, in dangerous unsanitary conditions.

the 60s 70s and 80s were far more irresponsible for all age groups. your original point is still wrong. irresponsibility in general is decreasing.

3 years, 5 months ago

I never said it should be banned. Buff why don't you ever read? I have made the exact same stance I always have and that's education. Not just educating kids but parents and adults as well. Evidently people have completely neglected any form of holding people accountable for their actions. Simple way to fix, increase the cost for abortions. The scientific community can use fetuses to expand on stem cell, but it shouldn't be a scapegoat for immature adults.

Nemiroff the average person getting an abortion isn't a kid or a teenager. It's an adult that drank to much and disregarded their wellbeing and got pregnant.

3 years, 5 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

what were the original reasons for abortions? are you telling me our youth practiced lots of responsibility in the 60s 70s and 80s? Those were some crazy decades.

responsibility has increased in our youth if anything.

3 years, 5 months ago

and we have been over this. banning abortions doesn't stop them. it only criminalizes women and puts them at risk as they get far more dangerous abortions. you cannot ban something that people want. it didn't work for alcohol and it isn't working for drugs. banning abortions doesn't work either. it only makes it worse.

3 years, 5 months ago

if the total # of abortions go down but getting them because you aren't ready for responsibility goes up there's nothing being fixed.

3 years, 5 months ago

Look at the reasons why they do though, idk why I have to say that 10 times.

3 years, 5 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

abortion rates have been declining steadily since the 1980s according to

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/graphusabrate.html

3 years, 5 months ago

@Marvel the majority of women who get an abortion are age 22-28 and alcohol is involved. Rape and health are less then 1% of why women get an abortion. The main reason is they aren't ready for responsibility. which has increased steadily over the years.

3 years, 5 months ago
Nemiroff
replied to...

one cannot blame the child for sins of the Father. that may feel right, but it is wrong.

3 years, 5 months ago

@QueenQuirks

Many people may not have the time and patience to put their child up for adoption. It isn't as simple as most think.
Some women may not want to have a child in this world that is not with them, but do not feel they are responsible enough or ready to have a child.
Think of rape victims that have unfortunately fallen pregnant with the attackers child, remaining pregnant and giving birth will leave physical scars that will not help the woman to become strong again, and will be a constant reminder.
Some rape victims are also paranoid that the child, no matter where or who raises it , will turn out like the father and does not want another person to be abused in that way.

3 years, 5 months ago
QueenQuirks
replied to...

adoption is something and fetus is considered a human in the definition

3 years, 5 months ago

You're right Marvel, because people don't hold people responsible and that's why this debate will always be prevalent.

3 years, 5 months ago

Making Abortion illegal will never stop a woman from having one. A woman will still have an abortion but a very unsafe one.

3 years, 5 months ago

If a person runs over a pedestrian while walking by accident it's still considered manslaughter even if the person didn't mean to.

3 years, 5 months ago

Considering the state of our orphanages, abortion may be the lesser of 2 evils.

3 years, 5 months ago

sex does not mean they chose to create a life. I can choose to drive that doesn't mean I chose to have an car accident.

a fetus may be human, but it is not a person. it does not meet the defininition of a person. therefore it has no rights under the law. it is an extension of the mother. it cannot exist outside of the mother. it has no brain function. it has no idea if exists. therefore ending that existence is not wrong.

3 years, 5 months ago

Actually most women who get an abortion are in there mid 20s who just aren't ready for a child. Which basically means they were irresponsible and don't want to be responsible people. The fact of the matter is, people want to give irresponsible people a scapegoat when it comes to this topic. On the bright side, those mid 20s women who want to go out, act like they're 18, and be irresponsible. If they get an abortion, that's one less irresponsible kid that will grow up into an irresponsible adult.

3 years, 5 months ago
Freyja
replied to...

It's already been said that the sex that lead to the pregnancy isn't always consensual. And why would a woman abort her child for no reason? No woman would.

3 years, 5 months ago
QueenQuirks
replied to...

Whether a fetus is a person to you or not. Its life. Its considered a human. Unless there's a reasonable reason for killing life. I really don't think woman should be given the opportunity to have the life they chose to create killed. You don't want a baby. Don't have sex. You can't do that. Protection. That doesn't work. You took the risk. You pay the consequences.

3 years, 5 months ago

I don't consider it murder but I do consider it wrong

3 years, 5 months ago

A fetus is Human. It has its own set of DNA and everything. When you kill it. Your killing something that's living. Sonething that is human. I don't care if a girl has to go through 9 months of pregnancy to deliver the baby. I don't care if its her body. Another human is worth more than going through nine months of pregnancy. It has to do with two people. Not just one. The fetus not might be human or real or worth it to you but it will be someone. It will be walking and living a human life. Killing it is killing a chance of life for them and it must suck for them to have somebody choose whether they should continue to live and grow than just die. Unfortunately woman are able to create life and unfortunately a fetus is a part in there body but its not there body. A fetus is a different body. Different set of DNA. Different human. A girl has full control of her body but when it comes to another living thing in the equation. That's completely different. You have control of your body until your trying to hurt and kill the life you Chose to create. I said chose. You chose to have sex so you chose to create life. Whether you have urges or not. You knew the risk.

3 years, 5 months ago
sagitario
replied to...

if men could be pregnant, abortion would be a right, and pregnancy an option.
Men make women gilty of becoming pregnant, but it actually needs a man involved (usually) in order to create a baby.

Parenting is a serious issue and it is better not becoming a father or a mother if you are not ready to rise to the occasion.
The idea of suffering a pregnancy (9 months of nightmare, for those who tell easy advice but haven't been in those shoes and have NO clue of all the shift in hormones, mood, pain, tests, and health rirks that it all involves) and then leave the baby for adoption, is unbearable for someone who knows what being pregnant is.

Women may have their reasons to consider an abortion. Being pro- birth and prohibiting abortion only would lead to and increase of adandoned children, children with medical issues in many cases, children who have no one to take care of them in dignifying conditions.

And it would criminalize women for being women and having the potential to become pregnant and punishing them career-wise.

3 years, 5 months ago

except a fetus isn't a person. until it is it is just an extension of the woman's body and they can do with it as they please. killing a person and preventing one are not the same thing.

3 years, 5 months ago

Woman shouldn't be entitled to an abortion. Yes they can do as they wish with their body, but that baby isn't their body. By choosing abortion you deny a person life just so that a woman won't be troubled by the child.

3 years, 5 months ago
PsychDave
replied to...

The reason depends on the situation. There are as many reasons as women who seek abortion, but there are some general reasons.

If carrying to term would risk the safety or life of the woman.

If the woman was raped and the pregnancy, child and permanent scars would come from having a child would serve as reminders of the attack.

There quality of life for the child would be unbearable. If the woman did not know she was pregnant and drank or did drugs, it could severely impact development.

The woman is not ready to have a child. I don't mean does not feel ready to raise it, I mean is too young to be a parent. Some girls now go through puberty between 9 and 14. This seems to be a major.

3 years, 10 months ago

most women who have abortions didn't get pregnant on purpose.

3 years, 10 months ago

if the don't want the child, they could give it up for adoption, at least thn, the kid can live out it's life.

or if thwy didn't want to give birth, why get pregnant???

3 years, 10 months ago

there are lots of reasons. it is their body and their decision. if they don't want to have it they don't have to.

3 years, 10 months ago

But what reason could there possibly be to want to kill it? Everything i can think of, there is a better option then killing it!

3 years, 10 months ago

a women who chooses to have an abortion would have a reason.

3 years, 10 months ago

All of things are true, yes. But it will develop to have thoughts, if they let it. Here, let's try to look at iu from the other side.
Why kill it?

3 years, 10 months ago

there is no child. it has no functioning brain. it has no feelings or understanding. it has no idea it is alive. it has no idea about anything. it is just a cluster of cells.

3 years, 10 months ago

lol, the way you said that made me feel like you were planning on eating the fetus.

Yeah, but the animals we kill and cook, they have a chance to live for awhile, getting an abortion takes away that child's life before they even see the world outside

3 years, 10 months ago

have you ever eaten a hamburger? guess what? they couldn't defend themselves. and you ate their carcass. obviously a human and a cow are different. but killing innocent living things and eating them is a part of life.

3 years, 10 months ago

I guess this topic all depends on what some people see as morally correct. I would never kill something that could not defend itself

3 years, 10 months ago

but it isn't a person. it is a cluster of living cells. but that doesn't make it a person.

3 years, 10 months ago

Yet is it not a living being? You are killing a human being in it's early stages of development

3 years, 10 months ago

except it can't be murder if it isn't a baby. it is a fetus. it has the potential to become a baby, but it isn't one yet.

3 years, 10 months ago

yes, but still, for there to be no consequences for killing a baby? if you ask me, it should be considered murder

3 years, 10 months ago

there are lots of people with the power over another's life. soldiers, doctors, judge's in states with the death penalty, police etc. Even car companies have the power to kill. they won't recall a car unless it is going to kill enough people to cost more than the recall. they will allow people to die to save money. so the idea that no one should have that power is naive.

3 years, 10 months ago

No one should be aloud to take away a life, even if it hasn't really started yet. Every life form on this planet is sacred, and should be treated as such. No one should have the power over anothers life!

3 years, 10 months ago
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